Recent Rookies Comparison
Driver Sts Po W W% T5 T5% T10 T10% Wless
Kenseth 194 1 9 4.64 39 20.10 83 42.78 59
Earnhardt 193 6 15 7.77 55 28.50 84 43.52 39
BuschKu 160 3 12 7.50 38 23.75 67 41.88 25
Harvick 152 2 5 3.29 29 19.08 58 38.16 55
Newman 126 30 11 8.73 46 36.51 63 50.00 20
Johnson 121 7 15 12.40 45 37.19 72 59.50 19
Biffle 88 1 6 6.82 11 12.50 20 22.73 41
McMurray 88 1 1 1.14 18 20.45 42 47.73 86c
Kahne 46 5 0 0.00 16 34.78 17 36.96 46c
Edwards 23 0 1 4.35 3 13.04 9 39.13 16
For Fun:
Stewart’99 222 7 19 8.56 78 35.14 129 58.11 27
JGordon’93 411 53 72 17.52 196 47.69 260 63.26 31
Notes:
Ranked by number of Starts.
Wless is career longest Winless Streaks, c=current.
KyBusch has 16sts, 1Pole, 1T5, 2T10.
TKvapil has 13sts and 1T10.
Newman’s 30Poles are more than the other 11′s 27Poles.
KuBusch-23y Youngest to 1stWin, 48 Sts was Longest to 1stWin.
McMurray-2 & Harvick-3 Starts to 1st Wins.
Johnson has won at 9 different tracks. DE,KB,RN at 8.
ROTYs were: ’00-MK, ’01-KH, ’02-RN, ’03-JM, ’04-KK.
Of the 50 drivers who made ROTY Runs from ’93 thru ’04,
27 are full-time Cup’05.
TS,MK,KB won their Championships in their 4th full-time season.
JJ and RN are in their 4th full-time season.
–
Crusader
Interesting stats, Cru.
I’ve edited them a bit for clarity and left them unsnipped below.
Jr.’s total wins (15) and winning percentage (7.77%) looks
pretty good. He’s come a long way.
JJ’s total wins (15) and winning percentage (12.40%) make
me feel good about RPGing him to win the Cup. Very solid.
Biffle is way ahead of the Youngest Guns (under 100 starts).
I pat myself on the back for pointing out how his win in the
last race last year didn’t get nearly enough attention because
of KB winning the Cup in that race (no mean feat, given the
broken wheel!). I saw Biffle on Inside NC last night. He’s
pretty calm in front of the cameras.
Marty
On 10 May 2005 18:00:02 GMT, "Crusader" <cr…@comcast.net> wrote:
Recent Rookies Comparison
Driver Sts Po W W% T5 T5% T10 T10% Wless
Kenseth 194 1 9 4.64 39 20.10 83 42.78 59
Earnhardt 193 6 15 7.77 55 28.50 84 43.52 39
BuschKu 160 3 12 7.50 38 23.75 67 41.88 25
Harvick 152 2 5 3.29 29 19.08 58 38.16 55
Newman 126 30 11 8.73 46 36.51 63 50.00 20
Johnson 121 7 15 12.40 45 37.19 72 59.50 19
Biffle 88 1 6 6.82 11 12.50 20 22.73 41
McMurray 88 1 1 1.14 18 20.45 42 47.73 86c
Kahne 46 5 0 0.00 16 34.78 17 36.96 46c
Edwards 23 0 1 4.35 3 13.04 9 39.13 16
For Fun:
Stewart’99 222 7 19 8.56 78 35.14 129 58.11 27
JGordon’93 411 53 72 17.52 196 47.69 260 63.26 31
Notes:
Ranked by number of Starts.
Wless is career longest Winless Streaks, c=current.
KyBusch has 16 starts, 1 Pole, 1 top 5, 2 top 10s.
TKvapil has 13 starts and 1 top 10.
Newman’s 30 Poles are more than the other 11′s 27 Poles.
KuBusch–at age 23 Youngest to 1st win, 48 starts was Longest to 1st win.
McMurray–2 starts to 1st win; Harvick–3 starts to 1st win.
Johnson has won at 9 different tracks; DE, KB, RN at 8.
ROTYs were: ’00-MK, ’01-KH, ’02-RN, ’03-JM, ’04-KK.
Of the 50 drivers who made ROTY Runs from ’93 thru ’04,
27 are full-time Cup ’05.
TS, MK, KB won their Championships in their 4th full-time season.
JJ and RN are in their 4th full-time season.
"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mole…@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:p30281hdsdrg3job0hglvpf4sq51hqgd5e@4ax.com…
> Interesting stats, Cru.
> I’ve edited them a bit for clarity and left them unsnipped below.
No snipping? Izat really u Marty?
> Jr.’s total wins (15) and winning percentage (7.77%) looks
> pretty good. He’s come a long way.
> JJ’s total wins (15) and winning percentage (12.40%) make
> me feel good about RPGing him to win the Cup. Very solid.
Don’t mean to rain on yore’s or DEJ’s parade,
BUT he has 72 more starts than JJ!
> Biffle is way ahead of the Youngest Guns (under 100 starts).
> I pat myself on the back for pointing out how his win in the
> last race last year didn’t get nearly enough attention because
> of KB winning the Cup in that race (no mean feat, given the
> broken wheel!). I saw Biffle on Inside NC last night. He’s
> pretty calm in front of the cameras.
Yup saw him too and he was the only one who gave ‘inside scoop’.
No surprise about Biff. He was CTS Roty then Champ. NBS Roty then Champ.
I thot Newman’s 30 Poles, 3 more than the others combined was impressive.
CRU-Who posts & reads in Courier New font, 10pt type.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Marty
> On 10 May 2005 18:00:02 GMT, "Crusader" <cr…@comcast.net> wrote:
> Recent Rookies Comparison
> Driver Sts Po W W% T5 T5% T10 T10% Wless
> Kenseth 194 1 9 4.64 39 20.10 83 42.78 59
> Earnhardt 193 6 15 7.77 55 28.50 84 43.52 39
> BuschKu 160 3 12 7.50 38 23.75 67 41.88 25
> Harvick 152 2 5 3.29 29 19.08 58 38.16 55
> Newman 126 30 11 8.73 46 36.51 63 50.00 20
> Johnson 121 7 15 12.40 45 37.19 72 59.50 19
> Biffle 88 1 6 6.82 11 12.50 20 22.73 41
> McMurray 88 1 1 1.14 18 20.45 42 47.73 86c
> Kahne 46 5 0 0.00 16 34.78 17 36.96 46c
> Edwards 23 0 1 4.35 3 13.04 9 39.13 16
> For Fun:
> Stewart’99 222 7 19 8.56 78 35.14 129 58.11 27
> JGordon’93 411 53 72 17.52 196 47.69 260 63.26 31
> Notes:
> Ranked by number of Starts.
> Wless is career longest Winless Streaks, c=current.
> KyBusch has 16 starts, 1 Pole, 1 top 5, 2 top 10s.
> TKvapil has 13 starts and 1 top 10.
> Newman’s 30 Poles are more than the other 11′s 27 Poles.
> KuBusch–at age 23 Youngest to 1st win, 48 starts was Longest to 1st win.
> McMurray–2 starts to 1st win; Harvick–3 starts to 1st win.
> Johnson has won at 9 different tracks; DE, KB, RN at 8.
> ROTYs were: ’00-MK, ’01-KH, ’02-RN, ’03-JM, ’04-KK.
> Of the 50 drivers who made ROTY Runs from ’93 thru ’04,
> 27 are full-time Cup ’05.
> TS, MK, KB won their Championships in their 4th full-time season.
> JJ and RN are in their 4th full-time season.
Bob Paxton wrote:
> Junior lets the s-word slip in a TV interview and it costs him a big
> fine and 25 points.
> Kurt Busch cusses an official out, contemptuously disobeys a direct
> order (revs his engine when ordered to shut it off) and nails an
> official with a water bottle.
> He gets nothing. Absolutely nothing, except that NA$CAr now says
he’s
> "on notice" not to misbehave again.
> Sheeesh. No wonder people think NA$CAr is incapable of enforcing its
> own rules in a fair and consistent manner.
–DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long wake
of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super Bowl)
and therefore was punished; KB’s comments were not broadcast therefore
they didn’t open NASCAR up to legal trouble. (also, shouldn’t drivers
be allowed to say what they want? wasn’t there another team which was
fined because they had some choice things to say about NASCAR? I know
only political speech is protected, but as long as the teams aren’t
defaming NASCAR in pubic (although we can listen to the radio
conversations, I would say that those are not public conversations) I
am not sure how NASCAR justifies punishing such conversation.)
–as for the water bottle: I believe it is still not clear whether he
deliberately threw it at an official, or if it hit an official by
accident.
–on the other hand: Jeff Green and Michael Waltrip put each other,
and the other drivers, in danger with their stupid driving on Saturday
night and they didn’t get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
Katharine
<malonekath> wrote …
> –on the other hand: Jeff Green and Michael Waltrip put each other,
> and the other drivers, in danger with their stupid driving on Saturday
> night and they didn’t get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
I wonder if Mikey dipped into his nascar suck-up bag and used an "aw, gee,
shucks get-out-of-jail-free" card. Once he used it, they couldn’t very well
just smack Green around so he was innocent by association.
malonek…@aol.com wrote:
> KB’s comments were not broadcast therefore
> they didn’t open NASCAR up to legal trouble. (also, shouldn’t
drivers
> be allowed to say what they want?)
Yeah, but I don’t know *any* sport that allows its participants to
assault/abuse officials without penalty. If kicking dirt on an umpire
gets a baseball player thrown out of the game, you’d think the same
principle should apply here.
> wasn’t there another team which was
> fined because they had some choice things to say about NASCAR?
Could you be thinking of the case where Steve Hmiel’s tirade against
NA$CAr earned him a little vacation?
> –as for the water bottle: I believe it is still not clear whether
he
> deliberately threw it at an official, or if it hit an official by
> accident.
I think the circumstances make that one pretty clear.
In article <1115741341.988943.308…@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Kurt Busch …… nails an
>official with a water bottle.
I think tossing a bottle out of the car,
and having it land near the guy’s feet, is hardly
‘nailing him’….
Do you really think that upon ‘further review’,
they had determined that he indeed ‘nailed’ the official on
purpose, that there would have been no sanction??
This is the same guy that they took away his pit credentials
and made him sign in every week after an incident.
It isn’t like they ‘love’ the guy…
Dan
———————————————-
The biggest difference between marriage and a car battery,
is that the battery has a positive side….
Chuck Steak wrote:
> I think tossing a bottle out of the car,
> and having it land near the guy’s feet, is hardly
> ‘nailing him’….
Is that what happened? I was on the road with my gospel group and
didn’t see the race.
However, I still have to go back and consider the big picture.
(Understand that I’m going by what was reported in the press here).
Busch was involved in a heated argument with the officials.
1. He cussed them out on the radio.
2. He was ordered to shut off his engine. He responded by revving it.
3. A water bottle is thrown out of the car and it hits an official.
4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
things that aren’t fit to print.
It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and still
not get any kind of penalty. No other sport would tolerate that kind
of abuse and disrespect directed toward its officials.
> Do you really think that upon ‘further review’,
> they had determined that he indeed ‘nailed’ the official on
> purpose, that there would have been no sanction??
I’d think there *would* be a sanction. That’s why I’m so puzzled that
there wasn’t one.
> This is the same guy that they took away his pit credentials
> and made him sign in every week after an incident.
> It isn’t like they ‘love’ the guy…
Maybe so, but I just can’t figure out how all of the above taken
together doesn’t add up to the same level of seriousness as one little
word slipping out in a TV interview.
Bob Paxton wrote:
> However, I still have to go back and consider the big picture.
> (Understand that I’m going by what was reported in the press here).
> Busch was involved in a heated argument with the officials.
> 1. He cussed them out on the radio.
which is not becoming to a current champion, but AFAIK is not expressly
forbidden by NASCAR.
> 2. He was ordered to shut off his engine. He responded by revving
it.
which was childish but did not endanger anyone.
> 3. A water bottle is thrown out of the car and it hits an official.
which may or may not have been deliberate on his part. compare this
with Mark Martin’s (?) throwing a water bottle out onto the track on
Saturday night, which was deliberate and posed a danger to his fellow
drivers.
> 4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
> things that aren’t fit to print.
that’s not what I read–nascar.com’s article doesn’t say he continued
to do that in the trailer, only that he said those things on the track.
> It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and
still
> not get any kind of penalty. No other sport would tolerate that kind
> of abuse and disrespect directed toward its officials.
but I believe there is some doubt as to what really went on–that’s my
point. for some reason, no one wants to be too specific about all of
this. for example, here’s part of Larry MacReynolds’ column from
today:
===============
Kevin from Plain Dealing, La.: If Kurt Busch hit an official with a
water bottle, used foul launguage over the radio and revved his engine
when told to turn it off what will his punishment be?
Larry McReynolds: If he indeed did all of those things, NASCAR will
possibly dock him points and probably fine him, keeping in line with
what NASCAR has done in the past for similar situations. But probably
the biggest thing that they’re going to do is place him on probation
until the end of the year, again, that is if he indeed did all of those
things.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/3603312
================
LM is careful to twice say "if he indeed all of those things".
Katharine
<malonekath> wrote …
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> ===============
> Kevin from Plain Dealing, La.: If Kurt Busch hit an official with a
> water bottle, used foul launguage over the radio and revved his engine
> when told to turn it off what will his punishment be?
> Larry McReynolds: If he indeed did all of those things, NASCAR will
> possibly dock him points and probably fine him, keeping in line with
> what NASCAR has done in the past for similar situations. But probably
> the biggest thing that they’re going to do is place him on probation
> until the end of the year, again, that is if he indeed did all of those
> things.
> http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/3603312
> ================
> LM is careful to twice say "if he indeed all of those things".
seems like the only one that is really in question is the water bottle, which,
taken with the rest, is hard to give KuB the benefit of the doubt on. But even
without that, the new nascar (nnascar(TM)) doesn’t tolerate such petulance. see
KH parking at the Big Red truck and refusing to go in (IIR). Parking in a no
parking zone? Not immediately attending a meeting (he had to take a leak,
maybe) sure doesn’t sound all that bad, but the attitude, THAT’S the killer.
‘nnascar doesn’t like that attitude, young man! Don’t you disrespect ME!’
In article <1115749533.876764.295…@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Chuck Steak wrote:
>> I think tossing a bottle out of the car,
>> and having it land near the guy’s feet, is hardly
>> ‘nailing him’….
>Is that what happened?
Yup.
>However, I still have to go back and consider the big picture.
>(Understand that I’m going by what was reported in the press here).
>Busch was involved in a heated argument with the officials.
>1. He cussed them out on the radio.
Probably not the first, nor last, to do that…
>2. He was ordered to shut off his engine. He responded by revving it.
I wouldn’t dock anyone points for that…
>3. A water bottle is thrown out of the car and it hits an official.
not ‘exactly’.
>4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
>things that aren’t fit to print.
You do not know that.
>It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and still
>not get any kind of penalty.
This is my point, Bob…
All this stuff we are talking about, has not been confirmed
by NASCAR… If he DID do all that stuff,
I think he would get a hefty penalty…
And he still may.
>I’d think there *would* be a sanction. That’s why I’m so puzzled that
>there wasn’t one.
Again…. Doesn’t that tell you something?
Like maybe it was not as big a deal as what people are writing about?
Dan
———————————————-
The biggest difference between marriage and a car battery,
is that the battery has a positive side….
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115749533.876764.295990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
> Chuck Steak wrote:
> > I think tossing a bottle out of the car,
> > and having it land near the guy’s feet, is hardly
> > ‘nailing him’….
> Is that what happened? I was on the road with my gospel group and
> didn’t see the race.
This is one point on which I’m going to take exception with your position
Bob. If as you admit, you really don’t know what happened and as you
indicate below, it was reported as something less dramatic as you’ve argued
your case in this thread… then why go into your rant (rants are good…)
about how bad his behavior was for "nailing" an official?
> 1. He cussed them out on the radio.
Can’t help it Bob, but I think it’s about time drivers spoke up more about
NASCAR. Sure, they’re going to be cranked up in the heat of the moment, but
they’ve been so castrated by NASCAR over the past few years that it’s time
to rock that boat.
> 2. He was ordered to shut off his engine. He responded by revving it.
Just clearing the carbon before shutting it down – prevents carbon buildup
and resultant pre-ignition… Also sounds really cool to rev up a big
monster 8 cylinder like they have.
> 3. A water bottle is thrown out of the car and it hits an official.
Appears to be less than intentional.
> 4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
> things that aren’t fit to print.
Again – I think NASCAR needs to hear more from the drivers.
> It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and still
> not get any kind of penalty. No other sport would tolerate that kind
> of abuse and disrespect directed toward its officials.
Well – he really did not display any public disrespect for the officials.
Saying things over a team radio is a lot different than saying them in
completely public forum. Saying things – even very heated things in the
privacy of the NASCAR trailer is a lot different also. You and I might not
use the same language that Kurt apparently did, but that’s a totally
different issue and not related to the bigger picture you’ve outlined.
> I’d think there *would* be a sanction. That’s why I’m so puzzled that
> there wasn’t one.
One obvious thought might be that the situation was not quite as you had
understood it to be. Another might be that Kurt has pictures of Brian
France. Now – imagine that one for just a bit…
> Maybe so, but I just can’t figure out how all of the above taken
> together doesn’t add up to the same level of seriousness as one little
> word slipping out in a TV interview.
In one context it would seem it does not equate, but in another, they were
totally different issues. One was public and one was private. Not sure if
that was any of the reasoning that was behind NASCAR’s decision or not.
–
-Mike-
mmar…@alltel.net
<malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
> Bob Paxton wrote:
> –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
> litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long wake
> of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super Bowl)
Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they put over the
air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are not
broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of discretion?
> and therefore was punished; KB’s comments were not broadcast therefore
> they didn’t open NASCAR up to legal trouble. (also, shouldn’t drivers
> be allowed to say what they want? wasn’t there another team which was
> fined because they had some choice things to say about NASCAR? I know
> only political speech is protected, but as long as the teams aren’t
> defaming NASCAR in pubic (although we can listen to the radio
> conversations, I would say that those are not public conversations) I
> am not sure how NASCAR justifies punishing such conversation.)
It’s nice to be a god in your own sandbox isn’t it? NASCAR doesn’t have to
defend their position with any logic – hell, they never have in the past so
there’s no reason to believe they’ll start now.
> –on the other hand: Jeff Green and Michael Waltrip put each other,
> and the other drivers, in danger with their stupid driving on Saturday
> night and they didn’t get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
Well, just being there and racing is putting each other in danger. It’s a
dangerous sport. I’m not one to get all riled up over what Michael Waltrip
and anyone else get into. Unless of course they do it right in front of my
driver…
–
-Mike-
mmar…@alltel.net
Mike Marlow wrote:
> <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
> > Bob Paxton wrote:
first, just to clarify: Bob didn’t write any of these quotes. I did.
> > –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
> > litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long
wake
> > of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super
Bowl)
> Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they put
over the
> air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are not
> broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of
discretion?
apples and oranges. NASCAR has the right by dint of the contracts I
assume the teams sign to punish drivers as it sees fit. Janet Jackson
didn’t work for either NFL or the network, nor had she signed, I
assume, any kind of contract which stipulated her behavior.
again, KB’s words were not during an interview. they were spoken, for
all intents and purposes, privately. if NASCAR is going to fine
everyone who swears on the radio, then a lot of top drivers are going
to find themselves out of the Chase.
> > –on the other hand: Jeff Green and Michael Waltrip put each
other,
> > and the other drivers, in danger with their stupid driving on
Saturday
> > night and they didn’t get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
> Well, just being there and racing is putting each other in danger.
It’s a
> dangerous sport. I’m not one to get all riled up over what Michael
Waltrip
> and anyone else get into. Unless of course they do it right in front
of my
> driver…
I think you’ve missed my point: the thread is about why KB wasn’t
fined for his behavior. I commented on a number of things that
happened on Saturday night that put drivers into unnecessary danger
which no one was fined for to provide the context for my thinking.
Katharine
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115749533.876764.295990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
> 4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
> things that aren’t fit to print.
> It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and still
> not get any kind of penalty. No other sport would tolerate that kind
> of abuse and disrespect directed toward its officials.
2 things. first, did anyone catch Jimmy Spencer’s comment about Kurt being
"Ignurn’t" during the post race interview and commentary? Then Kenny Wallace
says something like "Well that’s the difference between Kurt and Jimmy…
Jimmy won’t lie to you". I thought it was hilarious.
second… it’s funny… up until 2 years ago the "conspiracy theory" had
NASCAR being so anti-Roush that they wouldn’t allow a roushian to win the
cup… now it’s got NASCAR pulling punches.
Michael
<malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115758358.595723.317510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> > <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
> > > Bob Paxton wrote:
> first, just to clarify: Bob didn’t write any of these quotes. I did.
> > > –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
> > > litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long
> wake
> > > of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super
> Bowl)
> > Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they put
> over the
> > air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are not
> > broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of
> discretion?
> apples and oranges. NASCAR has the right by dint of the contracts I
> assume the teams sign to punish drivers as it sees fit. Janet Jackson
> didn’t work for either NFL or the network, nor had she signed, I
> assume, any kind of contract which stipulated her behavior.
Apples and apples. Go back and read the original comment again and then
read my reply. Bob posted that NASCAR was potentially liable for language
and I disagreed. He likened it to Jackson’s stunt and I asked him if the
NFL was fined for it being aired. That would be an apples and apples
analysis of Bob’s contention.
As an aside, since you can only assume and you and I clearly have no inside
knowledge as to what the language was in Jackson’s contract, you should not
presume to build an argument based upon NASCAR’s contract with the teams
versus the NFL’s contract with Janet.
> again, KB’s words were not during an interview. they were spoken, for
> all intents and purposes, privately. if NASCAR is going to fine
> everyone who swears on the radio, then a lot of top drivers are going
> to find themselves out of the Chase.
as I have also said.
> I think you’ve missed my point: the thread is about why KB wasn’t
> fined for his behavior. I commented on a number of things that
> happened on Saturday night that put drivers into unnecessary danger
> which no one was fined for to provide the context for my thinking.
Perhaps I missed your intended point, but I was only responding to the
comment about putting other drivers in danger. You see that line used and
abused to justify everyone’s claims about anything.
–
-Mike-
mmar…@alltel.net
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Mike Marlow wrote:
> <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1115758358.595723.317510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
> > Mike Marlow wrote:
> > > <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
> > > > Bob Paxton wrote:
> > first, just to clarify: Bob didn’t write any of these quotes. I
did.
> > > > –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up
to
> > > > litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the
long
> > wake
> > > > of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the
Super
> > Bowl)
> > > Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they
put
> > over the
> > > air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are
not
> > > broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of
> > discretion?
> > apples and oranges. NASCAR has the right by dint of the contracts
I
> > assume the teams sign to punish drivers as it sees fit. Janet
Jackson
> > didn’t work for either NFL or the network, nor had she signed, I
> > assume, any kind of contract which stipulated her behavior.
> Apples and apples. Go back and read the original comment again and
then
> read my reply. Bob posted that NASCAR was potentially liable for
language
> and I disagreed. He likened it to Jackson’s stunt and I asked him if
the
> NFL was fined for it being aired. That would be an apples and apples
> analysis of Bob’s contention.
first, Mike, as I noted in my first reply to you: you incorrectly
attributed all of those quotes to Bob. I wrote all of those
statements.
second, I see what you mean now. but the crackdown on on-air swearing
had its roots in the Jackson Super Bowl nonsense, and there’s no doubt
in my mind at least that the fines levied after the incident were at
the forefront of Mike Helton’s mind when he changed the rules and
started fining teams and drivers for non-mechanical violations.
but that wasn’t the point of what I wrote–the reason DEJr got fined
and KB (probably) won’t is because NASCAR has told the drivers, and the
drivers have implictly or explictly agreed to this, that there will be
no on-air profanity or there will be fines (and as I understand it,
it’s usually 25 points/$10,000 for each on-air profanity incident). KB
didn’t swear in front of a TV camera. that was the distinction I was
trying to draw (and which I now fear has been lost).
> As an aside, since you can only assume and you and I clearly have no
inside
> knowledge as to what the language was in Jackson’s contract, you
should not
> presume to build an argument based upon NASCAR’s contract with the
teams
> versus the NFL’s contract with Janet.
well, yes, I can only assume. or speculate. but I can also deduce.
and the fact that CBS (or whatever network it was that carried the
Super Bowl) didn’t sue or fine Janet Jackson and NASCAR did fine DEJr
and other drivers for swearing on-air, coupled with the fact that after
Helton told the teams last year that on-air swearing would lead to
penalties and each of last year’s incidents was followed by a fine,
leads IMO to a pretty logical conclusion.
Katharine
p.s. fwiw, I don’t think drivers should be docked for saying "sh*t" on
TV, although I understand NASCAR’s desire to keep its competitors to a
higher standard of behavior than almost all other athletes.
<malonekath> wrote …
> p.s. fwiw, I don’t think drivers should be docked for saying "sh*t" on
> TV, although I understand NASCAR’s desire to keep its competitors to a
> higher standard of behavior than almost all other athletes.
yep, but I probably wouldn’t watch gangsta nascar, so maybe they’re right. I’ve
got to be able, on SOME level, to be able to identify with the athletes, or at
least THINK I can.
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115745377.050336.73910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
> malonek…@aol.com wrote:
>> KB’s comments were not broadcast therefore
>> they didn’t open NASCAR up to legal trouble. (also, shouldn’t
> drivers
>> be allowed to say what they want?)
> Yeah, but I don’t know *any* sport that allows its participants to
> assault/abuse officials without penalty. If kicking dirt on an umpire
> gets a baseball player thrown out of the game, you’d think the same
> principle should apply here.
Now Bob, can you prove it was assault/abuse. Aren’t we going a little
overboard here? He threw a bottle out that ended up coming close to an
official. Edwards was dishing out tape from his car. If the tape ended up on
someone’s grille and overheating the engine should he be fined as well?
>> wasn’t there another team which was
>> fined because they had some choice things to say about NASCAR?
> Could you be thinking of the case where Steve Hmiel’s tirade against
> NA$CAr earned him a little vacation?
>> –as for the water bottle: I believe it is still not clear whether
> he
>> deliberately threw it at an official, or if it hit an official by
>> accident.
> I think the circumstances make that one pretty clear.
Glad you’re not an official
malonek…@aol.com wrote in
news:1115750714.315163.109560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> Bob Paxton wrote:
>> However, I still have to go back and consider the big picture.
>> (Understand that I’m going by what was reported in the press here).
>> Busch was involved in a heated argument with the officials.
>> 1. He cussed them out on the radio.
> which is not becoming to a current champion, but AFAIK is not expressly
> forbidden by NASCAR.
As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the Steve Hmiel
incident last year sets precedent that it is expressly forbidden,
and that the penalty is being sent home for a week. It’s hard
to see why a driver saying bad things on the team radio is any
different from the spotter saying them.
John
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115749533.876764.295990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
> Chuck Steak wrote:
>> I think tossing a bottle out of the car,
>> and having it land near the guy’s feet, is hardly
>> ‘nailing him’….
> Is that what happened? I was on the road with my gospel group and
> didn’t see the race.
You’re relying on reporters and never saw the incident. Please, in the
future, be careful when it comes to reporters. They report the stories,
truefully, and then some.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> However, I still have to go back and consider the big picture.
> (Understand that I’m going by what was reported in the press here).
> Busch was involved in a heated argument with the officials.
> 1. He cussed them out on the radio.
> 2. He was ordered to shut off his engine. He responded by revving it.
> 3. A water bottle is thrown out of the car and it hits an official.
> 4. He’s called to the trailer after the race and continues to say
> things that aren’t fit to print.
> It’s just absolutely amazing to me that he could do all that and still
> not get any kind of penalty. No other sport would tolerate that kind
> of abuse and disrespect directed toward its officials.
Have you seen the NBA? Do you have any clue what guys are doing in the NFL?
This is petty crap compared of whats going on in other sports. You have a
ticked off driver. Big deal. Deal with him. Put him in his place and move
one. End of story.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> >> Do you really think that upon ‘further review’,
>> they had determined that he indeed ‘nailed’ the official on
>> purpose, that there would have been no sanction??
> I’d think there *would* be a sanction. That’s why I’m so puzzled that
> there wasn’t one.
>> This is the same guy that they took away his pit credentials
>> and made him sign in every week after an incident.
>> It isn’t like they ‘love’ the guy…
> Maybe so, but I just can’t figure out how all of the above taken
> together doesn’t add up to the same level of seriousness as one little
> word slipping out in a TV interview.
<malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115763798.603515.229290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
> first, Mike, as I noted in my first reply to you: you incorrectly
> attributed all of those quotes to Bob. I wrote all of those
> statements.
You are correct and I only just now saw that in your previous post. My
apologies for having missed that earlier.
> but that wasn’t the point of what I wrote–the reason DEJr got fined
> and KB (probably) won’t is because NASCAR has told the drivers, and the
> drivers have implictly or explictly agreed to this, that there will be
> no on-air profanity or there will be fines (and as I understand it,
> it’s usually 25 points/$10,000 for each on-air profanity incident). KB
> didn’t swear in front of a TV camera. that was the distinction I was
> trying to draw (and which I now fear has been lost).
I do agree with that distinction thought – at least for as much as we really
know about the whole deal.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > As an aside, since you can only assume and you and I clearly have no
> inside
> > knowledge as to what the language was in Jackson’s contract, you
> should not
> > presume to build an argument based upon NASCAR’s contract with the
> teams
> > versus the NFL’s contract with Janet.
> well, yes, I can only assume. or speculate. but I can also deduce.
> and the fact that CBS (or whatever network it was that carried the
> Super Bowl) didn’t sue or fine Janet Jackson and NASCAR did fine DEJr
> and other drivers for swearing on-air, coupled with the fact that after
> Helton told the teams last year that on-air swearing would lead to
> penalties and each of last year’s incidents was followed by a fine,
> leads IMO to a pretty logical conclusion.
I think the crackdown on swearing has more to do with shedding the redneck
image than anything else. Not that NASCAR has said anything to really
support that, but the timing is coincidental with what appears to be a very
active move on NASCAR’s part in that direction.
> Katharine
> p.s. fwiw, I don’t think drivers should be docked for saying "sh*t" on
> TV, although I understand NASCAR’s desire to keep its competitors to a
> higher standard of behavior than almost all other athletes.
I’m somewhat ambivilent about the whole thing. I think the drivers who do
swear paint their own image and they can either bask in that or suffer the
consequences of it, as they choose. Like you though, I am glad to see a
standard that I remember as a kid, where atheletes were something to look up
to, and see NASCAR at least trying to keep that alive to some degree. Just
too little of that left in the world today.
–
-Mike-
mmar…@alltel.net
"Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREM…@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:b834f$4281287b$a22701e6$24680@ALLTEL.NET…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1115758358.595723.317510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com…
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> > <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
>> > > Bob Paxton wrote:
>> first, just to clarify: Bob didn’t write any of these quotes. I did.
>> > > –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
>> > > litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long
>> wake
>> > > of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super
>> Bowl)
>> > Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they put
>> over the
>> > air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are not
>> > broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of
>> discretion?
>> apples and oranges. NASCAR has the right by dint of the contracts I
>> assume the teams sign to punish drivers as it sees fit. Janet Jackson
>> didn’t work for either NFL or the network, nor had she signed, I
>> assume, any kind of contract which stipulated her behavior.
> Apples and apples. Go back and read the original comment again and then
> read my reply. Bob posted that NASCAR was potentially liable for language
> and I disagreed. He likened it to Jackson’s stunt and I asked him if the
> NFL was fined for it being aired. That would be an apples and apples
> analysis of Bob’s contention.
> As an aside, since you can only assume and you and I clearly have no
> inside
> knowledge as to what the language was in Jackson’s contract, you should
> not
> presume to build an argument based upon NASCAR’s contract with the teams
> versus the NFL’s contract with Janet.
As stated earlier. The FCC does not fine anyone without an FCC licence. In
the NFL fiasco, it was CBS (i think) who was getting fined by the FCC. CBS
contracted MTV to do the halftime show which they vowed never to do business
with MTV in a half time show ever again.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>> again, KB’s words were not during an interview. they were spoken, for
>> all intents and purposes, privately. if NASCAR is going to fine
>> everyone who swears on the radio, then a lot of top drivers are going
>> to find themselves out of the Chase.
> as I have also said.
>> I think you’ve missed my point: the thread is about why KB wasn’t
>> fined for his behavior. I commented on a number of things that
>> happened on Saturday night that put drivers into unnecessary danger
>> which no one was fined for to provide the context for my thinking.
> Perhaps I missed your intended point, but I was only responding to the
> comment about putting other drivers in danger. You see that line used and
> abused to justify everyone’s claims about anything.
> —
> -Mike-
> mmar…@alltel.net
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Apples and apples. Go back and read the original comment again and
then
> read my reply. Bob posted that NASCAR was potentially liable for
language
> and I disagreed.
I said nothing of the sort.
I merely expressed amazement in how NA$CAr apparently thinks saying
s*** on TV is worthy of a big fine and a points penalty while heaping
abuse on an official is not punished at all.
Really, that’s all the original post said. Go back and read it.
"Bob Paxton" <redgree…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115781453.407762.236240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> > Apples and apples. Go back and read the original comment again and
> then
> > read my reply. Bob posted that NASCAR was potentially liable for
> language
> > and I disagreed.
> I said nothing of the sort.
> I merely expressed amazement in how NA$CAr apparently thinks saying
> s*** on TV is worthy of a big fine and a points penalty while heaping
> abuse on an official is not punished at all.
> Really, that’s all the original post said. Go back and read it.
Correct Bob. I had lost the attributes as I read one of the earlier posts
and thought the comments came from you. I have since been corrected. My
apologies for attributing someone else’s comments to you in error.
–
-Mike-
mmar…@alltel.net
"Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREM…@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:93083$428114c8$a22701e6$20496@ALLTEL.NET…
> <malonek…@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1115742612.932864.117200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…
>> Bob Paxton wrote:
>> –DEJr let his words slip on TV and possibly opened NASCAR up to
>> litigation and/or fines from the FCC (as it happened in the long wake
>> of the talent-bankrupt Janet Jackson’s self-exposure at the Super Bowl)
> Not likely at all. The networks are responsible for what they put over
> the
> air but the organizations they are covering are not. They are not
> broadcasters. Did the NFL get fined for Jackson’s lack of discretion?
The FCC cannot fine anyone without an FCC licence. There for the network
gets fined. NASCAR doesn’t want to jeapordize its relationship with the
network. Also, it’s a bad image for NASCAR to show a ticked off driver
cussing at an official.
>> and therefore was punished; KB’s comments were not broadcast therefore
>> they didn’t open NASCAR up to legal trouble. (also, shouldn’t drivers
>> be allowed to say what they want? wasn’t there another team which was
>> fined because they had some choice things to say about NASCAR? I know
>> only political speech is protected, but as long as the teams aren’t
>> defaming NASCAR in pubic (although we can listen to the radio
>> conversations, I would say that those are not public conversations) I
>> am not sure how NASCAR justifies punishing such conversation.)
> It’s nice to be a god in your own sandbox isn’t it? NASCAR doesn’t have
> to
> defend their position with any logic – hell, they never have in the past
> so
> there’s no reason to believe they’ll start now.
Hey, you don’t have to play in the sandbox. Go play somewhere else. You
don’t have to like the rules.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>> –on the other hand: Jeff Green and Michael Waltrip put each other,
>> and the other drivers, in danger with their stupid driving on Saturday
>> night and they didn’t get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
> Well, just being there and racing is putting each other in danger. It’s a
> dangerous sport. I’m not one to get all riled up over what Michael
> Waltrip
> and anyone else get into. Unless of course they do it right in front of
> my
> driver…
> —
> -Mike-
> mmar…@alltel.net
On 11 May 2005 02:10:05 GMT, "Draft" <dr…@optonline.net> wrote:
> Edwards was dishing out tape from his car.
What’s that all about?
Someone else said MM threw a bottle out of his car and might
have endangered others. Details?
Marty